The Country Club Plaza is doomed…
Like most locals over 30 I grew up thinking of the Plaza as the Crown Jewel of entertainment, dining and shopping in Kansas City. And from the 1960’s through the 1990’s the Plaza had it all.
With innovative restaurants like Houlihan’s, unique, upscale stores like Hall’s, and nightclubs like Biba’s and Dirty Sally’s, the Plaza was the place to see and be seen. All of those are gone, along with probably 50 more once familiar names.
The Plaza has redone itself twice since the 1990s.
And as we all know it’s gone almost completely corporate, eliminating almost all locally owned venues. Late night entertainment has been all but eliminated. The last true nightclub was Blonde which closed four years ago.
The Plaza still boasts some unique shopping opportunities, a sports bar and a few nice dining spots like The Cheesecake Factory, Brio Tuscan Grille and Capital Grille, but they’re all chain restaurants, nothing really unique.
Attendance on the Plaza has fallen dramatically over the last two decades. This sad reality hit home when the Kansas City Star began doing surveys about people who live in southern Johnson County going to the Plaza. By the year 2000, the average person there went to the Plaza no more than twice a year. And since that survey things have gotten much worse for the Plaza.
In fact, the only monster event the Plaza has anymore is the early fall Plaza Art Fair which still draws tens of thousands. The Christmas lighting ceremony which media used to brag had attendance of more than 200,000 people got punked several years ago by Hearne, who teamed with the UMKC statistics department to actually measure and count the crowd, which turned out to be 20,000 and change.
Why is the Plaza fallen?
While it remains one of the most gorgeous shopping districts I’ve ever seen, it almost has to be on the edge of financial ruin.
In a word, the Plaza is dead.
Busy weekend nights – which are rare – look like what average weeknights used to look like. Even popular bars like Kona Grill were putting chairs up on tables before midnight when I was there last Friday on a date.
My female companion and I had walked there from Tomfooleries, which had less than 50 people when I got there Friday around 9:15 pm. The Plaza was a ghost town. It looked like a blizzardy Monday night as far as people walking around.
There just weren’t any.
Sure, the Granfaloon sports bar was half full at midnight as was O’Dowd’s but these two bars and many more used to have lines outside the door to get in. Especially on a beautiful, cool summer evening in early June.
Why was it so dead?
1) The population surrounding the Plaza has fallen and/or aged.
2) Kansas City, Missouri has become increasingly dominated by an urban population – primarily blacks and latinos – with far fewer white people moving there.
3) Johnson County continues to explode. It has all the cool, new stores, shops, and restaurants – a growing population – and far less crime.
4) Most people tend to shop, play and hang out near where they live. Since not that people are living near the Plaza that can afford its upscale stops and restaurants, it gets slower by the week.
5) The young black kids hanging out on weekends hasn’t helped matters.
6) There’s really nothing there you can’t get at many other nice shopping developments around the city.
7) People are price conscious when it comes to clothing, jewelry and other apparel and Plaza prices are the highest in town and often are not justified. Even Halls Plaza is closing.
8) Online shopping has hurt retail shopping everywhere, including the Plaza.
Not to mention that the Plaza’s leadership is archaic and out of touch.
They were even afraid to bring in a Stanford’s Comedy Club a few years back, fearing it would draw a young unruly crowd at night.
The opposite is true, the Plaza needed an adult evening entertainment spot besides the movie theater. And as of now, they really don’t have one.
The hierarchy of the Plaza has also eliminated nightclubs for fear they will draw black customers. Plaza leadership, have you ever been to Kanza Hall at 119th and Metcalf or other nightspots that only play techno music? Hello?
I used to live at the Sulgrave on the Plaza in the 1990s. I loved it there. It was a beautiful place to live and I remember seeing Christmas shoppers fill the sidewalks weeks before the holiday itself.
I still take my girlfriends to the Plaza for dinner. The new hotel near where JJ’s blew up has a great bar but it too has gone quiet. It actually brings a tear to my eye.
One thing I left out in my reasons the Plaza is doomed:
On top of all its other problems, Kansas City has no tourism.
Johnson County is the new Kansas City.
The malls are packed, the streets are jammed with cars day and night. It’s clearly Kansas City’s future.
I still long for the days of FAO Schwartz, Sharper Image, even Ruth’s Chris but they’re all gone and basically forgotten. As Hearne once quoted me in the Kansas City Star, nothing lasts forever, not even flowerpot bread. Or in this case, the Country Club Plaza.
It breaks my heart.
another stupid article glaze.
You know nothing…period.
the places in joco wished they could get the dollars per square foot the
plaza gets. they can’t. they’re whoring out the dollars for space
right now
In fact…one major festaurant is already seeing his flow down 30% from it
opening months!!!!! don’t get carried away…the place your goig to is
jinxed. Shawn didn’t make his club go there…big loser and from what I
heard he got bailed out with an investor.
and glaze…the world has changed in the last 50 years. Dirty sally?
that’s as old as dirt.
sorrella gone quiet? are you ever wrong!!!! jj’s is coming back right next door.
fao Schwartz: get in nyc…but not kc…this is a wal mart town.\
You said kanza hall plays only techn music . You must be deaf. Its mostly
country!!!!!! at least the last time I was there…and lots of country…even dance
lessons for country people.
Kansas city has no tourism…check the stats on whats happening…but there
has to be some changes made to make it better.
p and l is starting to light up…see the soccer games?
Halls is closing but their redesigning it to fit togdays shopppers needs..did you
see that…and do you think it will be empty for long?
West plaza area is booming…check those home prices..
and what about your woodside…its growing and expanding and becoming a
real destination for people…
You said youtake your girlfriends to the plaza for dinner…aren’t they strippers?
the plaza didn’t eliminate clubs to get rid of blacks…its just that the
other places opened and siphoned off the crowds that packed caseys place.\
stores there are doing well…some reporting good increases…but like every
retail location…some good …some bad.
go down to the art fair…go down on Friday nights…see the drinking places
filed with people. see the development near the plazze including VT building
probably 400 apartment units at 50th and main and down the street.
did you know that was going on?
nick and jakes just opened on main…lots of devleopement there glaze..
but you’re hanging outside the strip joints and you get no idea whats really
happening.
population falling: again wrong glaze. do you think vt wold spend 300 million
on the area if they thought it was going down.
where you been. I’ve been on the plaza 6 times this summer..never a problem…
enjoyed the sights…ya think jimmy would rebuild there if he thought it
was dying???? or that the plaza still has a high occupancy rate but needs to
adapt to todays new shopping habits.
tivol…doing bang up business.
kona…one of their best locations in the nation.
brio….its packed!!!!
cheesecake factory: 30 minute waste.
you can’t find parking…valets stole it…
cole vines may be in trouble but that space is worth its weight in gold.
Glaze..everything you say is wrong here. You have no facts or proof
or anything to back it up besides driving your “girls” around and making
stupid comments.
heres the deal..contact me at law4life@yahoo.com…i’ll personally take you on a
tour of the plaza and show you the situation is not as bad as you think….deal?
and let me tell you this ….as golden as joco is…oversaturation will set in.
I’m hearing that some guys are on a downward trend there…just too much
competition condensed in one area. Seem the sporting goods stores all packed
into 135…and your new place…maybe travel out there at night…you might
see a different crowd than you thought you were getting. And milleau was
a flop….be careful and ig you need solid business advice feel free to contact
Harley….Harley knows all!!!!!
however we wish you luck in your new location…can’t wait. We’re looking for
grand opening vip ticks for helping you make this big decision.
tl;shot myself in the head.
Agree. If you live up in the Northland, Lee’s Summit, JoCo, Independence, Blue Springs even WyCo. Why go to the Plaza when you have a mall or entertainment district close to you that’s just as good.
As CG said, the Plaza are not filled with mom and pop local restaurants anymore. It’s all chains and if you live in a good size suburb, it’s a good change that chain is already close to you.
810 scoops 610 once again…
Don’t agree with you much Old Man, but you’ve nailed it. Every suburb worth a damn has it’s down mini-Plaza. Town Center Plaza, Zona Rosa, etc… No need to drive clear to the Plaza and worry about getting a DUI coming home.
it all basically really began changing when highwoods took over. but I also recall the brouhaha that surrounded the metamorphosis of the old sears building and their auto service facility right across the street into Seville square and whatever they call that strip of shops. some people were outraged at that. same was true when Woolworth’s and the bowling alley left.
change is inevitable, but the Plaza was special. too bad highwoods took it in the direction they did, basically counting on the tourists claiming the chains as their own.
but, isn’t the Plaza III still locally-owned? O’Dowd’s? Granfalloon?
Yes they are, but only a handful of places are today…that local touch is gone…
And Plaza III has gotten long in the tooth and fallen on hard times is my take, Mike T
Remember, it’s a Haddad restaurant now and one of the last of the many he once controlled in the wake of the scandal at JC Nichols that almost sent it’s former head of the company to the slammer on racketeering charges.
Nabil Haddad used to come often to a lumber yard I was working at in early 2000’s in Louisburg Ks near his ranch. The guy would drive a rolls convertible into the yard, have us toss a few 2×4’s or whatever in the backseat then shoot the bull for a few minutes. The Rolls looked like he drove it through his pastures at his horse ranch. Hell of a nice guy. Devout Christian and immigrant / citizen who really loves this country. I don’t think I ever saw him act like a rich pretentious prick. Go figure.
so mark smith sells old pieces of lumber.
wow….big time business guy.
did you sell nails too or did you work the plywood
section along with plumbing.
Maybe you graduated to the toilet department and
moved on to home depotand their pvc department.
wow smith…a big talker with nothing to back it up.
Hey…I need a few new flappers for the toilets
in my rental units.. Can you drop them bye the
house.
You’re a titan of business!!! A real top notch business
guy.
Maybe someday, home depot will promote you
to greeter and give you a line to say like “can I help
you find the shitters”?????/ hahahahah
prettyfunny dude. more b.s. from the kcc seniors!
Im a blue collar worker. Lot of pride in that. And I don’t need to live in an imaginary world wiling away the hours on SSI. like you. Good to see Im in your head, I plan to stay there punk. Anytime you want to discuss your lumber needs just contact me at IdBeatYouLikeYouStoledSomething.com Id love to show you all of the uses for a 2×4. In the meantime, take your lithium and tell Prince Charles and Donny Trump, hi.
met mr. haddad when he first came to kc.
He owned 12 mcdonalds in Houston and sold them.
he had a rolls back then too.
He even gave mea ride in one of them which at that
time was cool.
He then attempted a chain of burger restauarants
called “chutes” where the food came down chutes
to your car.
I don’t think it ever caught on…but he wasa
brilliant businessman.
bought that building on the plaza for a buck?
good guy.
He was always nice to me and I was something of a fly in his ointment at the Star, mark.
However, he became really unpopular for making a lot of sweetheart deals with JC Nichols head Lynn McCarthy.
The one that made him something of an antichrist was when the Plaza kicked out Bristol and handed it over to Haddad who did a bellyflop into an empty pool with his short-lived seafood restaurant Jules.
Get it, Jules Verne?
I remember going to the opening and Carl Peterson’s love interest – a former fitness trainer in Westport – had affiliated with a local design firm and overseen the place.
KCC faithful may recall that The Mermaid got her nickname from wearing a sexy mermaid outfit and posturing for what few locals frequented the place.
Harley doesn’t agree, thinks Plaza is rocking, packed on fire…Harley you must be blind then..I live right by the Plaza. I am there twice a week or more…no there is still biz, shopping and dinning…its like 20% of what it was 15 years ago and 10% of what it was like 25 years ago..the night life is nearly totally gone…very small…I hate that its this way but it is Harley. Can it be fixed…? I don’t know…I ‘d like to see the Basketball or new Football/baseball stadium on the Plaza, that would help.
glaze…wrong again…looks are deceiving. You’re looking for hookers
and hos…thts exactly what they wanted to get rid of.
family oriented….with stores for the upscale female shopper.
your numbers are wrong and the management company can prove it.
the ones on the plaza are doing booming biz. but just like mi cocina
with the coke room downstainrs they cleared them out and cleaned
up the place. Eventually …when hallsvgets redone and another
gr eat restaurant fills ruth chris you’ll be proven wrong.
You’re not a bean counter…you haven’t seen the numbers…but
I’ll bet the numbers at faloon outdo the kanza hall….
i’ll bet plaza 3 still does big numbers.
and i’ll bet cap grille/cheesecake do better on the plaza than out south
operations.
where do you get your numbers. By driving around with your girls or
from the actual sales figures.
as for hearne…its just another mistake after mistake after mistake.
You hav now overtaken wislun as the gbiggest fool on kcc.
Haddad owns many other restauarnts in kc…please do some research…
you’re making wislun look like dr. phil!!!! go get some info before you
make any more stupidvstatements…please!!!!!!
and glaze…don’t fool yourself about joco…its growing…but its hitting
a saturation point. watch the new openings fail…I predict rock and
brew…brew top….will jennys already died….the new part of town
center they just opened and dozens of the thousands of spas in
joco and even some major retailers (like macys and eventually sears
and eventually pennys at 135) will die.
if you need info contact me. Only Harley can predict these things.
if you need b.s. and lots of misinformation you can call your buddies
smithy/wislun/hernia and the rest of the kcc senior club for info.
thanks…but remember…never doubt the wizard: Harley
and get out of the back seat with your girls…that’s a terrible way to
do market research (lol)
Jesus, you have a serious case of verbal diarrhea today, don’t you?
I don’t think it’s a case, dude. It’s a condition.
I know but his writing is even more horrible than usual. He must have gotten into glazer’s secret stash.
Too much month, too few meds
Wow, Dirty Sally’s. Haven’t heard that name in about 3 decades. If I had put the money I dropped there into some sort of retirement fund, I would have been able to quit working years ago. Pretty much lived there from when I got off work at 5pm until closing for a number of years back in the 70’s. Phyllis Miller, sister in law of Pontiac Super Dealer, Earl Miller, was the proprietor and for anyone lucky enough to have her invite you downstairs, she was a bigtime Elvis fan and had quite the collection of memorabilia. I’m sure our admin could tell a bunch of Dirty Sally stories.
Thanks for the mention.
My lips are sealed…
However Dirty Sally’s was one of the first high profile businesses on the Plaza to battle the influx of urban clientele and got there wrist slapped several times for discrimination, I will say that
I met phyliss as a ver7 young kid when she was with elvis
in vegas. shd had the brothel downstairs and I remember
the lines down the steps at her place to get serviced.
I think I saw hearne and glaze there…not sure but
there was more than backgammon going on in that
joint.
Whatever happened to Joey Lascon…..another Dirty Sally blast from the past.
That one sounds familiar, rings a tiny bell, but can’t put my finger on it.
Phyllis was a pretty hot, somewhat older woman – and very tiny – and usually had a muscled out, ultra buff, beefy boyfriend
A coworker/friend of mine worked at DS as a bouncer (6’4″ black belt, karate) and he invited me to comeby New Year’s Eve. I went by early 6
-7 before the crowd and Phyllis wanted to meet me (I was 24 and she was in her 40s). An Elvis slow song came in and she asked me to dance. She told me that I reminded her of Elvis whom she used to date….citing that I was a little shy. Lol.
The Plaza has always been about keeping people out. The people they perceived as not having money to spend.
Trying to create a hip atmosphere usually doesn’t work as you discovered at The Legends.
The Plaza may be the last remains of a Kansas City which was once a place people moved to rather than away.
I usually disagree with Glazer a lot more than I do on this one, though I do take some issue with reasons #2 and 3.
On #2…I don’t have the demos readily available, but would think pretty strongly that KCMO is seeing plenty of white growth, both downtown in all the 100% full apartment buildings and all over the Northland, most of which is KCMO even if people don’t think of it as such. Like where I live in the Northeast corner of the 435 loop.
And on #3, JoCo isn’t even the fastest growing part of KC the past few years, population-wise; that’s Platte and Clay Counties again. Though every new development in JoCo gets an unbelievable amount of hype, like when Park Place was talked about like a whole new thing and not just the addition to Town Center that it really is. I get the money is still down there but the Northland has plenty of growth of its own.
One thing you left off, Craig, is Power & Light again. Between Westport’s resurgence and P&L, the nightlife crowd has no reason to hang on the Plaza like they used to. Ah, the sad irony that we’re paying $18 million a year in tax revenue shortfalls to, in part, finance the demise of the crown jewel of KC – the Plaza.
Yep, d-bags luuuve the P&L.
He shoots, he scores…
Kyle is correct, pretty much on all counts.
I think the point Craig was trying to make is that KCMOs urban population has grown significantly too which probably makes for a higher ratio of young adults and kids in the area bordering the Plaza that want their share of the pie.
Which tends to keep people in the affluent JOCO burbs at bay.
Living in south Overland Park I can tell you what you probably already know or suspect; and that’s that the people out there really don’t care much about going “in town” to the Plaza or Westport.
Many of them find the Plaza, midtown and downtown foreboding. As Craig notes, they no longer have a need to go there because of the multitude of options in their nearby suburbs. Many of which blow away the Plaza’s offerings in terms of newness and uniqueness.
There’s also the specter of DWIs that are clearly on the minds pretty much everybody who parties or likes to dine out at nice restaurants.
Many of the suburbs Kyle mentions have indeed grown quite a bit, but few rival Overland Park and some of the other Johnson County cities in terms of diverse dining and entertainment options.
nice point kyle…growth has never been big in kc…its just people
moving from one area to another. never really big outside growth that
you’d see in Houston or dallas or Atlanta.
nice point kyle and unlike glaze’s statement…your’s is a proven fact!!!
not a bunch of hot air concocted fro m the back of his fancy shmancy
carvwhile he puts the move on his hotties (lol)
Been to 135th street lately…Prarie fire is booming
radio dude…my best frieindwas the developer….
prairie fire may be their own worst enemy.
already cash flows are dipping.
the bowling alley will have troule.
all the sports bars will kill each other…only so many dollars and if you look its no different than the plaza…2 nites they
do the business.
no growth ….building is lacking and I got word that
rents are on sale.empty spaces…already retailers have moved.
too many at athletic sports stores…they all can’t make it!
yes its amazing…but it’s just the calm befors storm.
too many restaurants to handle the population.
they said the same about zona rosa and we saw what happened there.
I willgt more info on the mix of businesses and report back..
but the developer has added some poor choices in
his retail mix. and it will hurt him.
but its god for the tax base.
but remember..you heard it here from Harley first.
Let me add that Prairie Fire tried hard to court Stanford’s and it would have been a kickass addition.
However, Craig got the feeling that the developer was strapped and unable to cut any kind of a halfway livable deal.
Stanford’s would have had to go for it big time with a restaurant as well and even then – with all the competition out south – it would have been a scary proposition with that much overhead.
Hence his move to Rosana Square at 119th and Metcalf
that bocce ball bar is going to be the first place out, put money down.
Who would greenligh a place where there are no old italians and cubans and everyone already has a backyard?! Do they actually think hipsters will go there?
My impression driving by was that it was nice but built on too small a scale. Like they packed in a bunch of unnecessary stuff but built it all too small.
Been there, done that, radio dude…
However the parking is ridiculous. They’ve got that garage but it can be a mess trying to get into when you’re trying to catch the start of a movie. And the street parking – so to speak – is infinitesimally small
Balboni is correct on the small scale of Prairie Fire, at least the part where the theater, bars, bowling and museum is concerned.
It’s no easy in And out with regards to driving and parking. It’s as if parking was an after thought if even that
“With innovative restaurants like Houlihan’s”
Glaze, the rest of the column was much better than this little nugget. If Houlihan’s is innovative than Go Chicken Go is positively cosmopolitan.
Next thing he’ll say is Fred P Otts was the dean’s peanuts and crazy original.
P Ott’s had its moments…
That’s why they opened a second on College Boulevard.
However, it was one of the ones that suffered after Haddad took over, dude
Come on, Hot Carl…
Craig was talking about the 1970s and 1980s when Houlihan’s was at the time considered a pretty decent restaurant and considered halfway hip
Halfway hip? Hearne, we both know that’s not true! Next thing you know we’ll be talking about all those bitchin’ nights spent at Bennigan’s and TGI Fridays.
guilty as charged. for awhile, on Friday nights, at TGI Fridays at ward parkway, the place was packed. this was right after they remodeled and added on to the movie theater complex there.
No, no, no, Hot Carl…
Ask radio dude or even Harley. When Houlihan’s opened up it was on fire and sparked a series of restaurants that did very well and were considered hip as bars as well, including in Phoenix.
We’re talking the early 70s, dude
Carl when Houli’s opened in early 70’s talk of the town..it was on fire, lines every night. I know I went…in fact Stanfords was much like Houlihans when we opened in 75 with food not comedy…you are wrong that joint was THE see and be seen in this city for several years, no question..but those days are long gone..todays Houlihans are what you said, no big deal..I agree on that one.
Fair enough, Glaze. Seeing as I’m only in my late 40’s and you’re in your 60’s I will take your word for it.
not to fan any flames, craig is right. houlihan’s (old place) then was a gilbert-robinson concept that WAS new and different and extremely popular. in fact, GR could about do no wrong in this town and practically owned the restaurant scene. today, GR is long gone, but there are remnants.. and they’re name… Houlihan’s Restaurants. they own the Bristol and J. Gilberts steaks too.
G/R had Bristol, Houlihans, Plaza III, Annie’s Santa Fe and Fred P. Otts, quite an incredible presence on the Plaza. I did work for them on Sunday nights Plaza III and got some of my payment in script. I was never at a loss for places to go that G/R had in KC.
Bristol and J. Gilberts still do quite well…
And if bristol was still on the Plaza – like most Kansas Citians thought it should be (Haddad did not renew their lease, giving it instead to Haddad) – it would be kicking ass.
Not that Capitol Grille isn’t
same with pogos/and your regular hang outs on the plaza.
Dirty sally…my grand pa went there!!!
no…glaze…theres more entertainment alternative now than
every before.
then there were 2 or 3 places seniors like you could go get
a hottie.
now there’s like 70.
gotta be 100 sports bars…10 dance clubs…50 summer drink
patios..places like sullivans/north/ etc. to have drinks
and check out the milfs (your kind of place)…
wasn’t that way before. In your time glaze it was
18 year old beer drinking in Kansas…14 year old hotties
on the boulevard and late night joints like chapmans
where you worked your majic!!!
lot different now…you’ll soon see.
don’t forft my vip ticks to the grand opening!!!!!!
Harley, your grandpa never went to Dirty Sally’s unless he got loose of the family and didn’t know where he was
Harley I have never been a ‘senior’..my ability with ladies is unequaled at my age or near any others. Still is. Pssst…and few are stippers most are just normal girls…but thanks anyways.
I am not opposed to dating gals at any age. I just seem to end up with the ones I end up with. Such is life.
Dude, Fred P Otts is…
I don’t even know how to describe it. I’ve eaten there a few times in recent years and the quality of the food was mediocre to awful. However, many younger people seem to have found it to their liking as a late night gathering place where they can get something to eat while they continue to party
oh boy..now I have to school glaze. to gtto 3 million you’d have to over
double thd current population. and the growth is nt much more than
6 or 7 per cent. NO migration to kc…except the Hispanic (which I
will prove later on)..so again the 3 million population number by
2017 is as absurd as wislon winning the lottery.
no rela growth..just moving from one earea to another.
sorry..but you set yourself up for that one.
luv ya…and don’t forget the vip tickets.
Harley you are a whack job sometimes, we are at 2.3 million plu now..so we need like 700 thousand more..I can see that by 2020 with Jo. County on fire..
“Harley you are a whack job sometimes”
Sometimes?
65 year old man about town. Hanging at a bar with 20-30 year old girls.
sure the burgers aren’t the same…new owners hearne!!!!!
and what is a married guy with 2 gorgeous daughter hanging out at
3am with some young hotties partying like its 1969???????????????
Looks like some of glazes young hottie pick up lines have rubbed off on the
great hearne!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahaha
Why don’t you just add 10 or 14 years to Craig’s age, long as you’re distorting things to make a point?
Harley
You mentioned Chapmans, that puts you at or near my age, Im 55 in July. No way you knew about Chapmans and be under 50 plus. Thanks for playing Gramps.
wrong again…look it up glaze..like the 100 other
mistakes you’ve made in the story and comments
on this subject.
2.3 million ….where glaze..and thatwould take
a 30% plus increase in population to get to 3 million.
kc proper is around 500,000…
again…don’t get into anything besides comedy/
hookers/hotties….
Chapman’s… reminds me of a story one summer when I was at KU but worked as an escort for female models. One night after a show and hitting a few bars we ended up at Chapman’s. When we ordered drinks at the bar one of the girls (I was with 3) said this is ‘Chapman’s son”…after several rounds the manager noticed that I wasn’t being charged for drinks and asked the bartender why. He said “that’s Chapman’s kid” to which he was told that I wasn’t (he was on California). I got a bill for $50. LOL.1974 dollars.
As Hearne points out no question OP and South Johnson County are growing faster and harder than ANY part of this city, and by far…chances are by 2017 KC will finally cross the 3 million mark due to the continued growth south of JO…like to 225th street and beyond…low crime, strong police efforts, solid incomes, whitey righty for sure, and so many new places can’t list half of them and counting..no they won’t all work, no doubt…but the table is set…KC grows almost totally cause of out South…sure other parts are growing but thats a baby Chicago out there…wow.
KCMO has high crime, a sketchie look to it in most parts with bums and street creeps all over the place…ugly..no not North KC but that’s a different animal.
You got that right. I work downtown and really like it but after commuting down and back 5 days a week from the Falcon Ridge area I don’t usually have a burning desire to get back down there on the weekends. Apart from the Crossroads and the River Market there really isn’t that much to do down here, anyway.
Glazer’s right. Also, Plaza is bringing in corporate/higher end shopping, completely changing the atmosphere. Most people can’t shop at the majority of the stores there. I expect the Barnes & Noble to go out of business in the next couple years, which has been a flagship meeting spot for two decades.
Johnson County is growing further and further away from the urban core of the metro area. JoCo residents have always been pussies about driving a few miles to dine/shop or see the town, but nowadays with people living out on 179th and beyond, do you expect them to haul their Volkswagen SUV to 47th St in KCMO? Heck no.
The handful of people who live in the “growing” downtown communities will eventually leave and buy homes in JoCo or Lee’s Summit. Let’s get real, downtown KC is NOT urban living. The truly urban parts of KC are Midtown/Westport, downtown is a jungle gym play-land for recent transplants from bigger cities and a small group of “hip” local kids who want to be urban. Want to be urban in KC, then move to Hyde Park or Westport and enjoy real urban life.
Kansas City, MO is falling. Johnson County, unfortunately, is rising.
There it is there, Harley and the other couple of doubters. We don’t like whats happened but it happened..The Plaza will never be back to what it once was..no matter what they do…due to population and minority growth near and on the Plaza..its the killer…no people and new ones are not the ones wanted for the Plaza…could it be the LANDING by 2020…sadly yes.
gawd, craig, the landing??? yikes.
of course, I remember that place too before it fell into disrepair. had a great piano bar – can’t recall the name – that featured milt abel on bass and his wife (can’t recall her name either). nice little jazz duo.
Well lets hope not…I am a bit over the top..I think the Plaza will survive, it needs new leadership for sure and some upbeat concepts, more events and a new direction. No it will never be the crown jewel again, but it is a beautiful area and one of the nicest shopping spots in the world, never got the national attention it deserved due to poor marketing nationally and leadership of KCMO…again so sad. I love the Plaza.
I think The Landing is a stretch, G Man…
But it is getting more and more insular
We moved to OP from NJ three years ago. Having been raised and lived in cities(Chicago, New York, Geneva and a few others) I can agree on some issues. Downtown KCMO is not urban living. Simple conveniences like grocery stores, dry cleaners etc simply aren’t available within walking distance and for all practical purposes public transportation is non-existent. SoJoCo is full of people who are afraid of the city/urban areas. We think nothing of driving to eat at Chicken Mac&Cheese or the Farmhouse but we are the exception. Too many people in this town(KC Metro) are limiting themselves by not stepping out of their comfort zones. Many people are too afraid/lazy to go to the Liberty Memorial, don’t take advantage of the KC Zoo etc. Until people “grow up” KC will remain a flyover town.
Paybacks are hell. Why did downtown become a ghosttown…when did it start?
As the population moved south starting in the 1930’s Jesse Clyde Nichols created The Plaza. A place to shop and dine where the population lived. As the population continues to move south…so will shopping and dining. It takes me 35 minutes to get to The Plaza from my home, I have been to the Plaza twice this year and only because I had a meeting with someone there… close to their office.
Love the Plaza…but way to inconvenient.
The area between downtown and the Plaza includes Westport and Crown Center. City leaders with vision would have built a stadium for baseball and Football between the two and circled that area with a light rail system. Why did we build a 17,000 seat arena where nothing else except warehouses and stockyards existed?
Kansas City continues to drop in rankings of metros. At one point we were ranked 28th….now we are number 32. Cities that are growing are Denver, Indianapolis, Austin.
KC’s biggest problem is a street called state line and all that JC money and they have only once or twice had anything to do with supporting our city. Union Station was a great example of how the whole city got together and made it happen.
Kansas City needs. Visionaries who can link the city as a metro rather than a turf war between our four primary counties.
Great point, Radio dude. Now that we lost a competition for the GOP convention that we were never going to win, for a lot of the reasons you mention above, it’s a discussion that needs to take place.
Well said, when those leaders show up they are run out…I should know. We are the ‘good guys’ the Christian/Jewish middle of the road, wait for someone else to do it first city. We really lead in almost nothing and thats a shame. KC is a nice place to live, traffic is not too bad except in our new busy South JO, crime in our Kansas upscale areas is low as it is in North KC and Mission Hills. The Plaza is now located poorly as far as ‘where the money and people are’ that is the real problem. You just can’t build it and they will come anymore.
Glaze for mayor (or KC City Council) after reading this post. You made a number of salient points on what used to be regarded as the premier shopping district in the nation. You’ve covered them all, so I won’t reiterate.
In fact, last month I was on the roof of O’Dowd’s and the pungent stench of Flush Creek tingled my nostrils. Either that was a sewer line or it had to be that damn creek. I personally told myself the Plaza is at the beginning of its end after that. (And there wasn’t any hoochies with cootchie cutters in my proximity, either. All high quality girls for the most part.)
Craig lives in Fairway…
So no mayoral run for now
Someone has to say it ….. black thugs have killed the Plaza. The same way they destroyed Bannister Mall.
I think this sounds racist — but it’s the truth.
Bus all the black thugs to Johnson County.
Nothing racist about true demographics. It is what it is.
By refusing to have any nightlife other than the movie theater and a couple of small bars (tomfooleries, odowds) they have essentially given the area over to the Cinemark Loitering “youth” crowd.
There is nothing there I can’t get at Town Center or Summit Woods or Legends or PrairieFire.
Ever since they invited the chains in it was the beginning of the end. Like it or not PnL is the symbol of the city now with Westport its skinky, perennially underachieving older brother. I don’t like PnL but if I was a tourist I’d probably end up there rather than eating at the Cheesecake Factory on the Plaza.
There is another point here: the plaza is just OLD. Shopping districts tend to last 30-40 years max. The plaza had a longer life because of its unique artistic motif and the fact that it was JC Nichols controlled for so long.
As a 30 something there was really never a time where the plaza was cool. It was a place to take a spoiled brat shopping for a douche t-shirt at ArmaniExchange (of course our cowtown wouldn’t have a real Armani, only the entry level one) or get an ice cream cone or a burger at McD (another victim of the scholars) and rub the nose of the boar statue. It was a place where fat old men got fitted for an obnoxious blazer at Jack Henry’s. Tomfooleries was fine but it is nothing you can’t get at 50 other places in the city.
Blues Guy is right, JoCo residents are too lazy or afraid to venture beyond their little enclaves. I never understood it. Kansas City is about the EASIEST mid-sized/major metropolitan area in the country to drive in. Traffic hold ups and jams are rare and when they do happen they dissolve quickly. I grew up here then lived away for twenty years, in Seattle, Chicago and Boston, and returned here three years ago and I can tell you that JoCo residents are some of the most fearful, sheltered and conformist people anywhere — and I lived in both cities/suburbs in the other places I lived.
As for the DUI worry. Sure, if you’re an alcoholic or heavy drinker, then, yeah, you probably have no business being on the roads anyway whether you’re driving one mile down the road or ten miles.
It’s all too bad. Kansas City, MO is a beautiful city with deep history, but unfortunately the JoCo people of the world could generally care less and are happier with bland shopping centers, big parking lots and nothing else.
No man, you don’t get it. The reason why joco people don’t care to venture beyond their enclaves in there is NOTHING WORTH DRIVING TO SEE.
Get it? Nobody wants to drive to go to the douschebag P&L district or get mugged by scholars at crappy bars at Westport or chain stores they already have at knockout game central Plaza.
Build something
interesting and we will come. Simple as that.
Mugged? Pfft. Scaredy cats. Typical JoCo resident. Once or twice a year there’s a reported mugging in the media and everyone panics, but if you did the statistical analysis you’d realize that you’re in far more danger everyday you get in your car and drive 35 or 435 than getting punched in the ribs for your wallet.
I will give you one thing, the P&L District is douchey. And I think a survey showed that most of the people who keep that district busy are folks from NKC and the Northland and of course downtown residents and some stragglers from midtown.
And, oh yeah, there’s LOTS to see in Leawood and Overland Park. Beautiful Nall and Roe, wow, what architectural wonders. Hey, look it’s a chain restaurant over there, look, another one over there. Hey, look at that corporate office park, and wouldn’t you know it, there are three more on the same block! How beautiful. I mean, if you like JoCo, fine, but be honest about what you’re getting in JoCo: a sense of safety, nice homes and schools, segregation, conformist neighbors, and blandness, which a lot of people like. That’s fine.
Just don’t trash Kansas City because it’s a real city, a little rough in places, not perfect. There’s no comparison, JoCo and KC are two different animals. It’s sad to see JoCo turning into an isolationist mindset, taking care of its own and nobody else. To be fair, I am sure there are similar examples in other cities, but unfortunately KC is small enough that such a division much more negatively impacts the quality of life and opportunities for the metro as a whole.
Bottom line, it’s okay to love JoCo, you don’t have to trash KC just because it’s “different” from what you like or used to.
“KC is small enough that such a division much more negatively impacts the quality of life and opportunities for the metro as a whole. ”
That’s the truth imo, and your point echoes what CG noted in an earlier post about a big fat state line that more than just divides the city geographically. and for KCMO, I would add county borders too… Cass, Clay and Platte don’t always play well with Jackson either.
hey mark smith..
get me 1/2 inch pvc for my toilet dude..
then a couple of pieces of plywood and a plunger. Come by the rental
house and clean the toilet …BOY!!!!!
a far as chapmans…friend of family worked at coca cola bottler on marshall…
went to parties there before I was old enough to drink. our neighbor worked
door there and he knew I was underage and never let me in.
but the parties there were cool!!!
you talk …but at 40 years old you weere schlepping lumber and toilets and
selling screws….wow…big time businessman ….
hahahahaha
jeebus Harley, don’t you ever give it a rest?
give me the address , Ill get those right to you. coward.
And he wonders why every single thing he responds to gets moderated…. he’s a gem.
Some day soon you’ll see HIS occupation come to print… that’ll be fun, now wont it?
M.S, plumbers are smart. There will always be crap clogging it up for everyone (as Harley proves in every thread)
Mark, dont get too spun up about it. He’s a gas bag. All his big talk and he lives in a $150K house off 435 over by Red Bridge, Bridlespur, Linden Hills, that area. Just let him jabber. He art collection he talks about owning is more expensive than his house really is; both are lies. He knows where he lives, I KNOW wjere he lives, case closed. Paul is right all the time….
Overland Park Sewage Treatment Plant No.3.
I know it by heart.
add half a million to the price…saw your house…
nice section 8 place.
get 10,000 cash…put in escrow big mouth
and lets see who’s right.
put up the money or shut up blow hard gas bag.
lets do it. Anyone else in ? PUt into escrow
at either central bank with tuteras or at
mission bank.
you stalk my house wislun…but you’re wrong
again….you’re a loser…
now pay that support!
Harley, hate to break this to you, but you’ve NEVER seen my house. You think you have, because you jump to conclusions when people feed you crap, like I did! Hearne knows where I live, he can confirm it.
Speaking of which, you know where you live, so do I, you cant fool and old fooler so give it up.
And Im fine if you play that way, print one of those emails from “people close to me”, lets see it. Print it in total….
Harley why do you put people down you don’t even know. Come on man you are better than that. We joke, its fine, but you yourself said not to do this so don’t…ok..I think you are a funny guy myself and I don’t get mad at you anymore right…so likewise.
Glaze, you know he would be the last person to take his own advice.
Hey gang thank you for so many comments. Many were very on target. We all love and respect the Plaza, its just fallen into a tough period. Hopefully things will improve for the Plaza. I’m pulling for them.
glaze…wislun and the toilet manager for wal mart can’t refute facts.
Haven’t heard from smith for months and he comes on and
tries to prove me wrong. check my facts…they’re the truth.
Again…disprove my facts. We already made wislun look like the
biggest fool in the city…we got to the “bottom” of smith’s highly
admired career fixing toilets at wal mart….and they were wrong
again on where I lived.
Sick part is that they stalked me to try to find my address.
And again they were wrongand their stories keep changing.
wislun…move that chair now! smith…get the plunger and
clean up that johnny on the spot!!!!!
you both make for some funny lines in the emails I get….
all b.s….no cash…no money…no future.
have a great weekend.
Harley reigns.
sorry wislun…gotten so many emails about you rom people
close to you. I don’t think you’d want this stuff printed
what they say.
Not my bag. Personal lives are closed on the internet in
my opinion…but I’ve got some doozies.
I won’t play that game. Saw how it crushed you personally
on tkc when the losers there went after you and your family.
Not my style. leave it at that. Stick to facts and real world
debaes on issues. I never attack glaze. we disagree and I
correct his errors and provide solid evidence that his
views are lacking.
and we have some fun.
with you …all you want to do is battle me.
you can’t win.
We all saw how devastated you were when the losers
at tkc went after you and your family. And I defended
you and your family.
That’s not what this is for….intelligent debate…fun and
entertainment.
and you wislun are fun to “pimp” because you take
everything so seriously.
with mark smith…he just another guy at the bottom
of the heap.
AND FOR THOSE FOOLS WHO THINK THE
PLAZA IS DOOMED…
REMEMBER THIS…THE PLAZA IS CONSIDERED
ONE OF THE PRIME JEWELS OF REAL ESTATE
IN THE ENTIRE NATION.
Frank Morgan once held the mortage/second on the
plaza and said IT WAS THE FINEST SHOPPING
AREA HE’D SEEN! Ask the experts…and glaze
is not na expert in anything.
The plaza remains an incredible piece of real estate..
and hearne/wislun/mark smith the toilet maker/
and the rest of you naysayers don’t know a thing
about it.
VT (Van tuyl trust) is spending probably billions
in the plaza. You think these business money making
machines would invest that kind of money and not
know what they’re doing.
Cecil and Larry knowknew more than the phony experts
on kcc (especially glaze)..
Glazer’s been around the block (many different blocks!) many, many times. I don’t think Glazer is selling himself as an academic who is hypothesizing about economic/political developments. He’s a man about town, who has been around for decades. He knows business and how things work, and understands that the ebb and flow of things is much, much more than what gets reported or is publicly disclosed. Glazer would never purport to make absolute predictions, but his opinion does carry weight. Also, Glazer is self-aware intellectually honest to know he makes mistakes, isn’t always right. Glazer is Glazer, shortcomings and adventurous spirit in all. He tells it straight, cuts through the bullshit, and some people don’t like that, but that’s no reason to disparage the guy.
didn’t disparage the guy personaly.
he made some statements that were factually
incorrect.
the plaze is thriving especially since the
top earners are the ones spending right now.
the resaurants are dong well (a few will be
gone)….new retailers will be gthere..
but brio and cheesecake are always busy.
glaze is right…not much night life although
I’m not into that muc ahnymore.
glaze has his opinions…never say he’s a
bad dude…we debate the subject and both
are pretty stuck in our opinions.
however…when you see the kind of moneybeing spent by the smartest investors in the
nation…billions worth…you know they did\their homework and they don[t just
drop that kind of money without a full
analysis.
I would not be surprised if VT eventually
takes over the entire plaza…they got the
money…and the people….
might be good time forpresent owners to
exit stage left.
thanks
Harley
as for wislun..he alays attacks me so I play
his game…and I alaways win… But it is fun
to outsmart the dude. I just tears him up
when I get under his skin. Still seems like
a coolguy…andyes one day i’ll buy him a
beer!
wislun…got plenty of emails from people who
have a grudge or actually really dislike you.
won’t print them…they’re nasty and probably
written to hurt someone and their family…
sorry…I never stalked your house…never questioned
your sanity…but personal attacks are not my style.
read my comments on others…I talk about their
comments…have a little fun…but I never bring
in family unless its with a little fun just like others
do with me.
you were crushed mentally and destroyed personally
by the attacks that the losers on tkc made on your family. especially your wife.
that’s not my style dude…
as I have always said youre probably a pretty cool
guy…we banter back and forth verbally…we throw
a few barbs at each other and I prefer to keep it that
way. You’ve threatened glaze…me and others
when they made comments…I’m not ready to
get that kind of relationship.
so keep your mind focused…stay on subject…debate
issues and if you’re by my house come have a beer.
I’m not a mean person….would never print what was
sent to me under any circumstances because
1. I don’t know if its true
2. I’m not here to hurt someones family
3. this is fun and games between 10-12 people who
like to see their comments on the web.
nothing will change my mind….
you hae people out there t4rying to hurt you…I’m
not going to be part of that…
again…not my sty.e…and know everyone on here
personally….and whle we go after each other it would
never go that way in public.
have a great fourth….and don’t blow any fingers
off …..
thanks..
your friend and nudge
harley
The downward shift can be partially attributed to cultural and technology changes in society. You want me to walk BLOCKS? Too much effort. Walk in the outdoors? No, let’s go back into McDonalds’ air conditioning.
I’d rather be on Facebook, Instagram etc. Not me personally, but so goes the thinking today.
It’s not just The Plaza, it’s the entirety of KCMO. I used to enjoy going to several restaurants in KCMO in Westport, The Plaza and the 39th St. corridor. I loved the area, but I got sick of seeing them use the PD for revenue enhancement. There are endless stretches of streets where you can’t turn left. Do so and I guarantee you there’s a Revenue Enhancement officer standing there waiting for you. Drive I-70 across KC and it’s rare there’s not a cop sitting there ticketing. Now they’re doing random roadblocks to check for driver’s licenses. Right, you can’t control some street punk, but you can trample my Constitutional rights. Drop dead.
Traffic stops are not the only worry. Parking tickets in the 39th St. area are $40. I parked along the street to go to Ghenghis Khan and I came back to a ticket, for what I haven’t a clue, but I do know I can eat at the mongolian BBQ at 95th and Quivera and not have to face that problem. I do know that I can drive around JOCO and not have to worry that every street corner may have a device that tries to fleece me. So yes, anything that’s available in downtown KCMO is also available elesewhere, but that’s not why I avoid KCMO, I love the ambiance, but I don’t appreciate a city that tries to fleece me everytime I go there to enjoy myself.
The problem of roving black youth is absolutely a consideration. When company came into town we wanted to go to a nice restaurant on a Saturday night and that was the specific reason we went elsewhere in JOCO. We did take them down the next day to Jack Stacks, but the big money was spent Saturday night. Multiply that visit by the 10’s of thousands and you’re talking about a serious dent in revenue.
We still go to the Symphony and support The Nelson, but neither of those is an every week event. When we do go, we go there, park there and leave.
So as I look at all of these comments the one thing that stands out for me is an incompetent city government that uses its law enforcement to prey on visitors instead of social control and maintaining a pleasant environment in its shopping and entertainment districts. Don’t blame the kids for the city’s failure to control them. Don’t blame the duplication of eating establishments when a mall could never provide the ambiance of The Plaza, or Westport. Blame city government. You can’t clean anything else up, or even hope to save anything else until you fix the clown act at city hall.
Well said sir. I agree. I was NBC 41, their lot was full, so was street parking, I was an on air guest…got a parking ticket..she saw me coming and wrote it anyways..69 bucks. End of story. Really that much huh.
No left turns, parking not available and waiting for your arrival… come on, have you ever not been anywhere outside of JoCo? Have you never traveled to, say, Chicago or Los Angeles or Dallas and any other 50 or 60 cities where traffic and parking are much worse than Kansas City. Parking tickets suck but it’s also part of the city life and living. Parking’s a premium in more populated areas, go figure. Stay in Overland Park and be happy. Quit complaining bout Kansas City since you obviously have no business being there.
Don’t really understand this “fleecing” you speak of. You can pretty much park anywhere on the street downtown for no charge and no chance of parking ticket after 6pm on weekdays and all day Saturday and Sunday. Premium spots are harder to come by in midtown or near The Plaza because people actually live there and often have to use streetside parking.
I live in Wyandotte County. I’ve been to Chicago many times and lived in southern California near LA and your post is an idiotic, illogical ad hominem, not a rational response to the points I made.
I’m the idiot? What the hell does where you live or been to have to doing with supposed parking issues in Kansas City? I was simply responding to your bogus statement…
“I do know that I can drive around JOCO and not have to worry that every street corner may have a device that tries to fleece me.”
Your words, not mine.
Yes, one can drive around JOCO without the many hassles of KCMO. Which is why people are abandoning KCMO for JOCO when they shop and dine.
I was simply responding to ONE specific point you made about the parking downtown, that is all. I’m not going to argue your other point although I don’t think people “abandoning” downtown for JOCO is anything new. In fact, if anything, downtown’s fortunes have changed dramatically since the 70s when it truly was first abandoned for the south. That said, for all the convenience of store front parking that the south offers, the traffic out there is a fcking nightmare…you guys can have it.
I know this has already been touched on, but for me the beginning of the end for The Plaza was when it changed from mostly locally-owned, SELF-SUSTAINING neighborhood (cleaners, grocery store, gas station, drug store, etc.) shopping district that was also attractive to tourists and close-proximity suburbanites to the typical chain-store/restaurant district that can be found anywhere in America or even overseas for that matter. While similar areas might be successful in other cities, the same retail gentrification has infected Rodeo Drive, The Magnificent Mile and Times Square (please God, bring back the peep shows and variety stores). Heck, you might as well just shop on on-line as the live shopping experience is in no way any longer more unique.
Hearne’s right though, I wouldn’t completely give up on The Plaza, it just needs to change direction. For instance, I’ve been asking for a legit live music venue down there to actually DRAW people to the area for upwards of 30 years now and that alone would be a great start.
PB – That’s the thing. JoCo residents have no idea what street parking is and no idea that it’s mostly free. I’ve been downtown countless times and have seen the traffic backed up for blocks of cars waiting to turn into the big (pay!) parking lots for events and whatnot and noticed block after block of FREE and mostly empty street parking spots. It’s unbelievable.
God forbid they’d have to walk a few blocks. They’re even reluctant to using the upper reaches of the massive parking lots in their own part of town.
Wow over 100 comments. Plaza is a hot button. Nice to see the plus 100 again. Good comments. Some great ideas as well.
you all talk about the black problem on the plaza and in kc.
out here in joco its rarely discussed. probably because we do’t
go down to plaza.westport or p and l.
we stay out here and fo the most part don’t have those problems
although we are maybe 5 years away from the same problems
that kcmo has in thenorthern part of joco.
that’swhyits hard for us joco people to understand the problem.
but I hear lots of people going to p and l and theres not a problem
there when they’re there.
Is this a real problem. Or is it because the people who make these
comments are just plain angry against non whites.
So I can understand the problem if you live there…but its hardly
a subject of conversation here in joco.
I meet with many peole outhereand talk with them..and truthfully
its a non issue.
If women want to shop on the plaza they’ll go there. Its a fun
experience for many I know. Maybe not at night…but they still love
the entire experience of strolling thru the plaza.
We all hope any problems are cleared up and the plaza continues
to be the diamond jewel of this town. without it…we all suffer.
for out of towners its our trademark…its what really makes this
town unique. And holiday shopping on the plaza has no
comparison anywhere in the nation….its just fun.
hopefully things will go well…but as I said few people
realize theres the type of problem that people on tkc and kcc
seem to think there is.
I rarely agree with CG, but he’s right on this one. Where he misses the boat is a lack of mentioning Westport. Westport was very crowded Saturday night with young professionals. The Plaza was relatively dead. Driving out places like reVerse has really hurt them.
I live in NoJoCo, so the Spector of DUI is exactly the reason I won’t go to OneBlockSouth or Town Center or Summit Woods or Legends or PrairieFire. Cab ride home from the Plaza/Westport is $15. It’s $20 or so to Crossraods. I can’t get from OneBlockSouth to Prairie Fire for $15. Plus, Kanza Hall is douchy at best. I’d take the hipsters in Westport over the dbags, with their sunglasses propped on their ball hats, at Kanza Hall any day.